What happened if Devil is a good person?

[Terminal Est]

Modern Satanism is basically a philosophy which suggests we embrace all that is human, which in turn, implies that Christianity denies and/or forbids such natural manifestations.
Then again, they have the most outrageous ''rules'' if you will.

If a man smites you on the cheek, then smash him unto the other.

...right. I will go to jail if I follow such a thing.

But the Satanic Bible written by Anton Szandor Lavey, now deceased, has also made me think of a lot of things.

In today's society and its religious implications, Christians have formatted many of our aspects and facets with symbolism, and have attributed it to everyday life, obviously.

The fear of death. To deny our atrocious nature. To hide our shame at not being able to obtain the power we would seek in order to achieve our desires.
The cycle of emotions which makes up our mental structure, given to God and Satan…
These have been given to God, and in that respect, He has become our symbol for the utmost perfection.

But all the things we do not wish to be, to know or to accept...such as greed, selfishness, betrayal, cruelty, weakness or apathy have been given to the Devil...despite, which no one can deny, these traits make up for the majority of what we humans are.

But since we do not want to accept this, it would seem Satan is responsible for our destructive ways, with His temptation.

It is almost black and white...God is everything we could never be, and we seek Him for guidance and protection, while the Devil is everything we are, and we curse Him for tempting us and pushing us away from the right path.

It would seem mankind, with such symbolism does not feel it needs to be responsible for its actions.
Leave everything to God, and since it is alright to sin as many times as one want as long as one goes and confesses every Sunday, it is alright to err, but of course it is always the Devil's fault.
We cannot assume anything, and with such strong implications and beliefs, mankind can never change, for most religions offer a re-occurring type of philosophy.

I believe it to be much more complex then such, but in the end, my take on the matter remains in such a simple explanation.

It is all us. There is no devil or God, but it would seem so hard to take responsibility for ourselves that some other things must be at hand.

But either way, I strongly believe this, weather the roles of God and Satan are reversed or not. It would not make much of a difference to me if I believed. Since I am human, I would follow what my heart tells me, for such a thing I can feel, therefore know it to be real. But..instead, I decide that I should try and understand these things with logic. But, I often cannot find much room for it in things I can never see.

And I might add, how can God or the Devil be either good or evil?

Give me a definition of both good and evil. Such alignments are never absolute, as what one man considers evil may very well be perceived as good by another.
Such a thing can never be set to stone, as nothing or no one can tell you and reassure you on the rights and wrongs of your life.

But still..I have thought of it many times, just with what I learned about Satanism. What if Satan was trying to rescue mankind from the cruelty of God?

Imagine the Devil is attempting to make us see the truth in what we are, and in knowing it, we would revel in what we humans do, and have always loved. We would live.

If we cannot succeed to see the truth, we shall become the slaves of God for all of eternity.

(Because what I think about the human symbols given to both the deities is set for me. If God is real, to me He is cruel.)

Well..I do not believe in God or Satan, or anything at all for that matter which would correspond in such wayward ways of life.
So I am not too worried about which one of these deities truly loves us.

But if such is the case...many people on Earth would be screwed.

[The Graceful Assassin]

Originally Posted by Terminal Est

And I might add, how can God or the Devil be either good or evil?

Give me a definition of both good and evil. Such alignments are never absolute, as what one man considers evil may very well be perceived as good by another.
Such a thing can never be set to stone, as nothing or no one can tell you and reassure you on the rights and wrongs of your life.

Oi! Another one of your "JUMBO" Posts! @_@

It's like the perception of temperature. One man thinks 70 degrees Fahrenheit is hot, while another thinks it's cold. It's based on how they grew up. And, either way, there is a point where al humans would consider a temperature as hot, and likewise with cold. But, in actuallity, there is no such thing as cold. It is simply a word we made up for the absence of heat. Total absence is absolute zero, which is the "coldest" temperature possible. The same logic can be applied to God and Satan. No matter what varying levels of good and evil we have based on world views, there will always be an absolute good, God, and an absolute evil, Satan, which noone can deny that good or evil. In the same manner that "Cold" does not exist, it is also possible that "evil" does not exist. Life could just be varying levels of God's presence, and when there is absolutely no good (absolute evil), that is where Satan resides. Think this sounds ridiculous? Go tell that to Einstein. He's the one that made this philosophy up.

I'm a little confused as to why you believe that if a God does exist, that He can only be cruel and that he 'll enslave us for truth for eternity. Could you explain a little more? Does that mean that you wouldn't believe in the Devil because God is evil?

[DayBreak Bahamut]

TGA is right, its all on perspective, whos to say that whats right is good and whats wrong is evil. Now imagine this situation, your best friend and mother have been kidnapped and you can only choose to save one, while the other remains and is killed. Now if you choose your mother; You keep your parent but your BEST FRIEND dies, but then again if you let your friend die; you are breaking the bond of trust between your bond of friendship..so whats the right thing to do? Good and Bad isnt an absolute, its a perspective, what Osama did to the Trade Center to us was evil, while he believed it good. Malebolgia was considered a master of deceit and tricked Eve into eating the apple, now because of that, we *us humans*exist if you believe in christianity. So what was wrong about Satans trickery? It angered God and thus Humanity was born from a bad choice, so in conclusion there is no such thing as being a "good" or "evil" person, you can just be yourself and do what you believe in, right or wrong...

[The Graceful Assassin]

Very true... if I were in that situation, not to be cheesy or anything, I'd honestly trade my life for my friend and my mother. But if it was an absolute decision between the two, there is no right or wrong, based on my view

[Terminal Est]

Oi! Another one of your "JUMBO" Posts! @_@

Well...here comes another one.

It's like the perception of temperature. One man thinks 70 degrees Fahrenheit is hot, while another thinks it's cold. It's based on how they grew up. And, either way, there is a point where al humans would consider a temperature as hot, and likewise with cold. But, in actuallity, there is no such thing as cold. It is simply a word we made up for the absence of heat. Total absence is absolute zero, which is the "coldest" temperature possible. The same logic can be applied to God and Satan.

To see it this way, I can also suggest that death then does not exist. It is a word we have placed for the absence of life, the result of expiration.

I must say I disagree a bit though...because first of all, you are putting philosophical views towards temperature ratings.
The perception of good and evil are rather different in comparison to heat and cold.
If cold is the word given to the absence of heat and cold does not exist, then does only heat exist? Because you are using that word to justify the suggestion that cold does not exist.
So...even if we could find a proper definition for let us say, good, would that mean evil does not exist? There simply cannot be one without the other.
We think good and evil are only suggestive, so why apply such an opaque example…?

Weather good and evil have absolute definitions are not, they are both different, and their perceptions, although I believe them to be many, are all something, no matter how subtle. (Or not, for that matter.)
None of it falls in the popular beliefs of good and evil though, hardly. (Opinion.)

No matter what varying levels of good and evil we have based on world views, there will always be an absolute good, God, and an absolute evil, Satan, which noone can deny that good or evil.

What do you mean by this? That true evil and true good are real, or that the abundant beliefs in such things makes them real?
I agree, it is easy to believe and see these things, but I think the motives are very misunderstood. There is always the big picture which we can witness, but what of the thoughts and the actions that made it so?

Hitler was evil. Was he born evil? What is this evil of which I speak?
Did he do what he did from fear, desire..or was he just evil?

If a person likes to torture and kill others, is he evil? Or insane? The true human possibilities almost render the definitions of good and evil void (And their roles, as well.) , if you ask me.

In the same manner that "Cold" does not exist, it is also possible that "evil" does not exist.

I understand this. If God does not exist, then our logic suggests that the evil which God guards us from, can never exist.
And this evil, it bears the most primal and simple definition of all, as well as the good God is said to be. These alignments, I believe go hand in hand with the symbolism given to such philosophy I mentioned earlier.

[/quote]Think this sounds ridiculous? Go tell that to Einstein. He's the one that made this philosophy up.[/quote]

I would love to, but he is no longer with us.
But I like the theory, as it seems to try and explain a reason for good and evil instead of just saying it is there.
But even then, how do you have good without evil, when attributed to what most people believe of it?
A place cannot be devoid of evil, if good does not exist to give meaning to what is evil.

Still, how could anyone ever be so sure? No one can define these things, how can we possibly theorize on them?
Even if I do not believe in God and the popular beliefs on good and evil, I find it hard to bring up a decent opinion on them, when in fact, they may very well be a part of our everyday lives.
Either way, does not good or evil decide the decisions we make each day?

Could you explain a little more? Does that mean that you wouldn't believe in the Devil because God is evil?

If I am to consider God from The Bible, and what has followed from history and the representation of God through humanity, most of their actions, doctrines and ideals go against my personal opinion, if I ever had to muster one up, of good.

I do not even know where the Devil comes in, because I do not believe in these things. Maybe He is trying to save me? Or is He no better?

I cannot truly give an answer about this, because I do not attribute The Bible to my thinking, unless it is an element.
All I can say is that what humans have made of God frightens me.

TGA is right, its all on perspective, whos to say that whats right is good and whats wrong is evil.

Actually, this was one of my bigger points. This is why I do not understand how some people can believe in such grandiose and simple versions of good and evil, when the subject is so much more complex, and riddles with opinion, perception and communication (Or lack thereof.) In which, every day, we live.
Why do we not see it?

..so whats the right thing to do?

A-This is a hypothetical situation, one in which most of us will never find ourselves in.
The philosophy applied to this does not really meet with that of everyday life. (Unless you live in a war ridden country or something, where they do this for fun.
In that case, Assassin may be right with his theory; there is no good, only evil, so your decision is evil either way. Unless, put in such a crappy situation, having NO CHOICE you cannot make an evil decision.)

B-If it was me, I would save the younger person out of common sense.

I enjoy life, so all I can do is offer the same to other people. My mother is older then my friend, therefore, with my ignorance and selfishness and arrogance, I will do what I think is best, likely based on what I think to be right. Unless, I am aware that my friend is suicidal and wishes to die.

But such questions are answered, in my opinion, almost like bureaucracy work.
Weather or no this is how mankind works, I do not agree with such a view of thought, or presentation of one's common sense or goodwill.

Good and Bad isnt an absolute, its a perspective,

But all along, I was trying to say just that..what did I say to make anyone think otherwise?

[DayBreak Bahamut]

ahaha, that was one of the best posts ive ever read! SERIOUSLY!
and i wasnt trying to contradict you, i was supporting you :P

But yes thats my view on life, heres another situation, cause ive gone through this

One of your Best Friends Tells you a Secret about ANOTHER one of your bestfriends. Something a bit more, i dont now...humilitating.

And because you know this friend so much, whos secret you now know, do you tell them that theres rumours like a true friend? Or do you not tell her that one of there other firends is spreading secrets to save her from emotional harm ? Unfortunatly i went through this, and trust me...it sucks...

in the end, i decided that i would go the path of inbetween, I did not in fact tell her that her friend was spreading secrets, but i did tell the person who spread the rumour not to, and i used a very blunt and serious tone, to get the point across.

Im not sure if it was a "good" or "bad" decision, but i did whats best in my opinion for everyone

[The Graceful Assassin]

I'll get back to you DayBreak Bahamut

Terminal Est (Sorry I'm being too lazy to quote you)

Death, in itself, whether an afterlife exists or not, does not exist. You are correct in saying that, for death is indeed the absence of something, and, like cold, does not exist. Yes, I was trying to say that cold does not exist for it does not. There are only varying levels of heat unless it is totally absent. As for that philosophy, don't blame me blame Einstein lol. Either way you have to admit that it is a good metaphor, even if it isn't true. Anyway...

Whether you think a certain temperature is hot or cold is up to you. But either way you cannot deny the existence of heat. That's what I was trying to get at with the God/good thing. In certain conditions, like for someone who is insane, it is up to you to decide whether that is good or evil. There are some things like that that will always remain unknown in our limited knowledge.

I never said that Good and Evil in themselves are a perspective, but what you consider to be good or evil IS percpective. Whether you believe in Good or evil is just a belief. But Good and Evil do not exist in a literal sense, obviously. It's not like I can go up and shake Good's hand. But, like with heat/ cold, there could be a source. Heat doesn't merely exist, as with everything, so that is why I believe that the good of God and the evil of the devil, or wherever the origin comes in is absolute.

The problem is how to prove good and evil if they don't truly exist. Well, those concepts might very well provide the existence of God. It all starts with morality. When an animal kills its prey, is that evil? Of course not it's trying to thrive and survive. But when a human kills, under circumstances that we could consider "evil" (not self defense or anything like that), we have our morality, our conscience kick in. But also, Morality can be considered relative and pointless. But like with heat, it's still there. So morality is imposed on you by many sources. By you, your family, your country, your religion, society, the entire world! So what imposes it on the world and humanity itself? Plus, scientifically speaking, we shouldn't have the morality that we do. Sure it insures our survival by taking care of our fellow man, but what about when a firefighter risks their life for a defensless soul, or a police officer endangers themself against a threat to another human life. People give their lives everyday for this "meaningless" sense of love. Why attempt to save the lives of those who are doomed, when you're only going to "waste" more lives. Shouldn't natural selection have weeded out this sensless "yearning to do what is good"? That's where science fails us. That's why I believe in God and good, the devil and evil. I don't know if He is really omnipotent and omnicient, or if I should even worship him the way I do or at all. But I still believe in good and evil coming from some sort of being(s), an absolute source.

.... that felt good. In the literal and non-literal sense I just had a breakthrough right there.

[Terminal Est]

and i wasnt trying to contradict you, i was supporting you :P

My failing to quite understand where your post was pointing at proves another thing.

Let us say I would have been angry because you disagreed and I flamed you.

Am I evil because I flamed you, or am I just stupid? Of course I would not do that, but in any case, forgive my wrong perception, heh.

So how can the results of one be good or evil if one is simply ignorant?

If good and evil were so contrast as people believe, idiocy or confusion would not exist..

Im not sure if it was a "good" or "bad" decision, but i did whats best in my opinion for everyone

Trust me, it sucks...

I have been through the same damn thing, when one of my father's friends kept saying bad things of my father and another man.
I swore I would say nothing, then went and told my father and the other man involved. I had THEM swear they would not tell the man who said these things I told them everything. And they did, so I passed for a rat and a blabbermouth.

Like you have said, I wanted to do it for the best of everyone, but in truth, my intentions were much more towards myself then anything else.

I think it was all a whole scam and that my father and his friends set this up to teach me a lesson.

They never told me so, but later on thinking of this, I came up with the conclusion, because the whole affair was rather pathetic.

So today, when these things happen for real, I keep quiet. Let them deal with their problems, because my perceptions of good do not apply to everyone.

This is why I have trouble discerning good and evil, EVEN in personal perception.

Am I being good for not getting in people's affairs, or evil for helping no one?

Was I evil for blabbing to everyone, or not? Rather was I selfish, or ignorant?

Things such as selfishness, ignorance, fear, desire or impudence are so much more real then good and evil, and I think that the perception we may give to these alignments are ways to hide the raw truth we despise, which goes back to the subject of religious symbolism..

Either way you have to admit that it is a good metaphor, even if it isn't true. Anyway...

Yes, I admit its logic. Although it still remains that such a way to see things is rather relative.

If cold does not exist, why does ice exist? If you have a freezer, it generates cold weather to keep things frozen, no matter how much heat there is. It creates the cold, therefore such a thing exists. Unless it chases away the heat maybe?
I do not really know how a freezer works, plus one does not have much to do with philosophy..still, I can hardly blame Einstein, since in his age there were no freezers...

But with the subject of death, I do agree with you. We cannot create death, we can, however, take some life away.

But still...if this absence of life did not exist, we would not have life itself to define ''death'', so without the absence of life, we cannot define life.

Maybe it is like time? Does time truly exist, or is it a definition that we have given to the motion of life, aging and all? The earth circulates the Sun and creates day and night and years, but that is not really time, is it...?
I think I see what you mean..

But even so, I have some trouble trying to attribute such a way of thought to good and evil, especially since you yourself have made it clear of your opinion, that most of it is up to one's perception. I think the same, but because there are many things to replace good and evil.
To me being insane, whatever that is, is not good or evil, even right or wrong. It is an element all its own. Fear as well. Almost everything which I know to be real render imaginary things such as good and evil void. In fact, I believe they serve as nothing but cop-outs for, like you mentioned as well, our limited knowledge.

But, like with heat/ cold, there could be a source. Heat doesn't merely exist, as with everything, so that is why I believe that the good of God and the evil of the devil, or wherever the origin comes in is absolute.

Now I understand what you meant. Sorry for the confusion, I did not quite grasp it the first time.
I can only agree with you about that.

So what imposes it on the world and humanity itself?

Actually, such is a good point. I understand all that, but I never actually thought of where it might actually start, although to me, everything must have a beginning and an end. Nothing does not exist, nor does eternity..

And although science is infantile and perhaps proves we should not even be bearing such consciousness, I have always theorized that it is because mankind must learn to live with itself. (Or tHAT is a way to live with itself.)
And with that logic however, we would have to question the existence of God Himself.

Shouldn't natural selection have weeded out this sensless "yearning to do what is good"?

Do you not think this is what nature IS doing?

To give necessary fear and ideals to others, some must play a role. If a man is born to become a fireman, as an example, then perhaps it was his natural role. (Just like, years ago, a man might have been born to die as a knight in a war.)
And such things, I do not believe to be so obvious or evident to the ''naked eye'', if I may put it as so...

Or in any case, this is part of what I believe the cycle of life to be. Rather vague, but here is not really the topic where I should speak of it.

We have emotions to think it ridiculous, but the subconscious doesn't, exactly like a tornado has no emotion either.

Or..if one believes in God..here is a saying..

The Lord weeds out his garden so that the flowers may grow.

This was said to me one day, when I asked why would God have created tobacco, so that people may harvest it, smoke it and then die of it like flies.

So, are all smokers evil? Do they deserve to die? Is making a stupid decision evil?

If good and evil are subjective, then why is God so rash? And if good and evil ARE absolute, given my love of life, then God truly is evil and I could never yield to Him..

So..with your obvious wisdom, I cannot help but ask myself just what kind of god you believe in..?

You believe God is real for you have said so...but how do you believe? Your belief must give definition to its source?

[DayBreak Bahamut]

I Do not believe in the God of Christianity or any other religion, but I do believe that there is a larger force then ourselves at work here; that created us, but let us do our own bidding, and did not create the concept of Good or Evil, in my perspective Good, Evil and all of the sorts are all made from the mind of mankind to pursuade. If you wish to create an ally, you may say that the foe is "Evil" while the foe may be doing an action that is justified as "Good". I, myself to do not believe in good or evil, i believe that what i do is right. And with that, what I do is not Evil or Good, it may be arrogant, but its not put into a cateogry, this i guess could be defined as a "Rebel"...but I hate levels, its jsut a another teen category.

[The Graceful Assassin]

That's really just propaganda, it has nothing to do with "true" good and evil.

Terminal Est, stupidity doesn't necessarilly have to fall under good or evil, it just is another category, like you said. Such things can confuse us and make us wonder, "Why would a God do that". There are several possibilities:

He is cruel, like you believe

He does this so that greater evils won't arise (Like maybe someone has a mental disability because they would have taken over the world or something. But then why would he allow evil to exist at all?)

God is not omnipotent and omnicient. He has faults and tries just like humans, so he can't create a "square circle" or be everywhere at the same time.

We just don't know and will never be able to comprehend these things, so we put our faith and trust with this God.



I lean towards the last two. The third has been on my mind for a while now, but it isn't necessarilly a bad thing.

I'm not sure how you think that natural selection is weeding out that yearning. Could you explain a little more?

But say we did find out what imposes our morality, and it isn't God. Well, then what imposes it on that, and so on, and so on. It's like an impossible, never ending chain that can only be explained to its fullest extent by a God. Kind of like how we are composed. We're made of cells, which are made of atoms, which are made of electrons/ protons, and so on. The only way we can fully explain our existence is that God created the most basic unit of all matter