Otherworldly Entities

[Hazuki Sensi]

"Firstly, that isn't a reason why it wouldn't work, that's a reason why it might contradict itself, secondly, that's not what it suggests at all. I think you're taking it too far out of context."

Ok an example is really needed to illistrate the point - western to eastern europe in the cold war - the west had capatailsm and innovation, and developed new consumer products. The east remained with the cars they had drove in the 50s - they didnt like that

And the elite theory is true - marx said that power is derived from economic control of the means of production, without ownership and leadership, all would be equal and nodoby would be dominated - as we have seen in real life - it cannot work without a government or dictatorship. i think this is very important to the case as commusim contraditcs itself in this way - the state owns everything - ownership remains - thus i consider it pointless as the capitalist ethos of ownership remains and all thats cut out is compitition. Compititon breeds innovation and im back where I started - with products.

"No it wouldn't. That's bullshit." - it did - one of the major reasons for the people rebelling in 1989 was lack of decent consumer goods like the japanese stuff we were getting at the time - its been heavily documented as one of the causes. im not saying this is the main cause, but living conditions as opposed to political ideology made the common man fight.

The USSR only developed industrially because it needed to compete with the USA to make communism surivive, at a purely marxist level marx believed that socialism was utopia - that all mans needs would be forfilled with the removal of capatalist control and profit. clearly he is wrong as humans always want more, we want bigger, better, faster - its in our nature to produce to fill needs and desires - all of the societies were stagmented compared to the west, and they rebelled because they wanted a piece of that pie

Hell if you want anymore proof of this look at all the countres who rushed to join the EU in the last 17 years

"Communism doesn't suggest that they should be equal in terms of work. To each his own craft, to each his share. (This point also doesn't suggest why Communism doesn't work. I'm not actually sure what it's meant to mean)" - Yes it does, if everyone were equal when were not in terms of intellignece, strength, taste, pasion etc, surely that would be a bad thing

For example - in cpatalism we can do anything as long as were fit for it (in theory) in communism theres no such oppertunity because it promotes apprent inequality - it tarnishes people with the same brush, we all do the same so nobody can opress. thats the whole idea of it. But the fact is we are not built to all do the same thing, we all have needs and wants and satisfactions, so if we all do the same level of work - we would hate it! thats why i think its a valid claim against communism, I want the freedom to be myself, not be treated as everyone else is


As for the next point you made, I think we have it pretty damn sweet in this country, and we saw what a mess communism made of eastern europe and 50 years of politics, the point i was trying to make was a "if it aint broke dont fix it arguement" kinda thing

And by the last point i screwed up - what i meant was Marx sees this as a bad thing, somthing that isnt human nature, but im saying it is human nature, so marx and the communist idea is bad for human nature. A person isnt lowered or damamged by capatalism, so communism with its humanist ideas of "saving people" from the horrors of not growing your own grub are unfounded

[Kain Highwind]

Oh. My. God.

[Hazuki Sensi]

sorry politics student, very smart

One of the major reasons I dont like marx is he explains power and utopia by comparison - he says it SHOULD be like this and studies it, and by doing this I think he basically ignores studying how we actually live. Econmic determinism is only a small aspect of our lives, it cannot be the basis of everything we live by.

[Kain Highwind]

Oh my, and jus-wow. Instead of noticing the blatant insulting nature of my previous post, you'd rather interpret it as some kind of strange ego boost.

Wow.

You actually are an idiot.

[Hazuki Sensi]

I notice you have nothing to say to my arguement against communism, so until you can justfiy futher why I am mistaken I shall regard you as the idiot for reducing this very interesting political talk into pety insults.

[Kain Highwind]

Originally Posted by Hazuki Sensi

"Firstly, that isn't a reason why it wouldn't work, that's a reason why it might contradict itself, secondly, that's not what it suggests at all. I think you're taking it too far out of context."

Ok an example is really needed to illistrate the point - western to eastern europe in the cold war - the west had capatailsm and innovation, and developed new consumer products. The east remained with the cars they had drove in the 50s - they didnt like that

First of all, that doesn't even pertain to what was said originally, second of all, what are you even trying to say here? What significance does that have specifically to communism? The same can be said of every governmental system.

And the elite theory is true - marx said that power is derived from economic control of the means of production, without ownership and leadership, all would be equal and nodoby would be dominated - as we have seen in real life - it cannot work without a government or dictatorship. i think this is very important to the case as commusim contraditcs itself in this way - the state owns everything - ownership remains - thus i consider it pointless as the capitalist ethos of ownership remains and all thats cut out is compitition. Compititon breeds innovation and im back where I started - with products.

Elite THEORY cannot be TRUE, which is why it's THEORY and not FACT. Again, you haven't even represented a problem here, you've just mentioned the same point that you yourself debunked a few replies ago.

"No it wouldn't. That's bullshit." - it did - one of the major reasons for the people rebelling in 1989 was lack of decent consumer goods like the japanese stuff we were getting at the time - its been heavily documented as one of the causes. im not saying this is the main cause, but living conditions as opposed to political ideology made the common man fight.

DECENT and INNOVATIVE are two different words, try and differentiate between them please. They were of low quality because of the money in the country; they were of low quantity for the same reason. Every single flaw with communism can be attributed to external factors, like wars.

The USSR only developed industrially because it needed to compete with the USA to make communism surivive, at a purely marxist level marx believed that socialism was utopia - that all mans needs would be forfilled with the removal of capatalist control and profit. clearly he is wrong as humans always want more, we want bigger, better, faster - its in our nature to produce to fill needs and desires - all of the societies were stagmented compared to the west, and they rebelled because they wanted a piece of that pie

Aside from the stagnation fact (which was attributed to external factors, again) that’s exactly it. Yet again you've defeated your own logic with this unorganised rambling.

Hell if you want anymore proof of this look at all the countres who rushed to join the EU in the last 17 years

What? How does that relate to what was just being said? If anything, this supports MY arguement.

"Communism doesn't suggest that they should be equal in terms of work. To each his own craft, to each his share. (This point also doesn't suggest why Communism doesn't work. I'm not actually sure what it's meant to mean)" - Yes it does, if everyone were equal when were not in terms of intellignece, strength, taste, pasion etc, surely that would be a bad thing

You've taken it out of context, AGAIN. You're thinking too much on a flat-planed level, and trying to drag everything back to a one-dimensional almost "nazi" like level.

For example - in cpatalism we can do anything as long as were fit for it (in theory) in communism theres no such oppertunity because it promotes apprent inequality - it tarnishes people with the same brush, we all do the same so nobody can opress. thats the whole idea of it. But the fact is we are not built to all do the same thing, we all have needs and wants and satisfactions, so if we all do the same level of work - we would hate it! thats why i think its a valid claim against communism, I want the freedom to be myself, not be treated as everyone else is

Wow, you've like, totally missed the point.

As for the next point you made, I think we have it pretty damn sweet in this country, and we saw what a mess communism made of eastern europe and 50 years of politics, the point i was trying to make was a "if it aint broke dont fix it arguement" kinda thing

NO ONES TRYING TO CONVERT THE ALREADY SUCCESS COUNTRIES. GOD.

And by the last point i screwed up - what i meant was Marx sees this as a bad thing, somthing that isnt human nature, but im saying it is human nature, so marx and the communist idea is bad for human nature. A person isnt lowered or damamged by capatalism, so communism with its humanist ideas of "saving people" from the horrors of not growing your own grub are unfounded

So basically you're using examples from Marx that you agree with and bits that you disagree with, in effect, destabilising any validation that might come from it, yes?

Also, we see hallmark Hazuki style bullshit, whereby you've totally lost the plot.

Maybe you should stop trying to take everything to a black/white style argument. Yes, it can be funny when done jokingly, but to sum up, the only thing from with communism is past practise. Which, yes, for some is a good enough reason to stop the idea. Fair enough. But the only examples we've seen have been in worse case scenarios.

I think you should stop all this one-sided oppressive rubbish and start thinking a little more intelligently about the whole picture.

-------part 2------------

Originally Posted by Hazuki Sensi

I notice you have nothing to say to my arguement against communism, so until you can justfiy futher why I am mistaken I shall regard you as the idiot for reducing this very interesting political talk into pety insults.

Did that answer your request you uneducated oaf? Maybe it did maybe it didn't, I've no doubt that you'll come up with some more estimated guesswork to try and get around my main arguments, but I'll see an end to that.

I'd also like to make it a bit clear that I have no intention of stopping with my "petty insults".
Because I feel they are justified, I also feel it's a tad hypocritical for you to say so, when you make no effort at subtlety when you try and do the same.



-------part 3-------------

Here we go.

*illustrate
*capitalism
*Europe
*didn’t
*Marx
*nobody
*communism
*contradicts
*I
*that’s
*competition
*I’m
*Japanese
*survive
*Marxist
*fulfilled
*capitalist
*stagnated
*countries
*intelligence
*passion
*there’s
*opportunity
*apparent
*oppress
*don’t
*something
*isn’t
*damaged
*justify
*further
*petty
*PUNCTUATION

LEARN THEM, PRACTISE THEM

There, I think that adequately equates my feelings. I'll have no more discussion on this, it's back on topic, or the topic hits it's back, ok?

[Snaggle_Tongue]

FTP, H!
Anyway, now that we're no longer discussing POLITICS and being ON TOPIC I think that if there was anything not-of-this-earth that we were to come in contact with, we'd end up killing it. Wether by accident or not.

[Hazuki Sensi]

just for your information Kain -

practice is NOT SPELT WITH A S

And im not going to bother to reply to all your childish points cause clearly you have not the mental capacity to undertand such deep political theory

Ultimalty Im a politics student and your an idiot who reads too much into things, I am safe in my theory and the high marks I have recieved for them, you are a stupid child who cannt do anything but make snipe remarks about peoples spelling while making a huge error yourself.

Kindly grow up, stop being so childish and accept that I have made a decent arguement, you have not made a single relevant counter

When I get my degree in politics while your still doing A Levels I guarentee you your pathetic attempts to counter me will be on my mind

You have not read marx, you will never read marx. You have no concept of his theories as you have proven to me with your childish innaccurate responces. You are a stupid child who has no grasp of any of these issues in any sense. You make critical comments that contradict themselves and are clear to everyong besides you.

If this is a little to long for you - You are a total loser who will gain nothing from standing there and looking smug, we all laugh at you for it and hope you continue. When I have my degree Ill be sure to take your spelling "practise" into account as well.

[Kain Highwind]

Originally Posted by Hazuki Sensi

just for your information Kain -

practice is NOT SPELT WITH A S

Actually yes, yes it is. Also, the correct way to phrase that sentence was "Practise is not spelt with an "S"."

And im not going to bother to reply to all your childish points cause clearly you have not the mental capacity to undertand such deep political theory

To suggest that someone you have frequently argued with, suddenly has gained the mental capacity of a child is, actually, somewhat ironically, childish. Besides, you have little or no knowledge of regular political theory, let alone deep knowledge.

I'd also like to point out that it is not grammatically correct to begin sentences with "and".

Ultimalty Im a politics student and your an idiot who reads too much into things, I am safe in my theory and the high marks I have recieved for them, you are a stupid child who cannt do anything but make snipe remarks about peoples spelling while making a huge error yourself.

Being a politics student doesn't make you the rain-man when it comes to politics. It certainly doesn't mean that if you've gained high marks either. All that that shows us is that you're quite good at copying down other people’s opinions. Opinions that are not meant to be followed but rather, understood. Which is, I suppose, why you've got such a closed minded view on things. On the "reads too much into things" quip, I think you've seized my comment that I've used on you, not fully understood it, and decided to try and use it against be. How very brazen of you. It might interest you to know that what you've been doing is more commonly known as reading too much into things. What I've been doing is not taking things at face value.

Kindly grow up, stop being so childish and accept that I have made a decent arguement, you have not made a single relevant counter

I think it's about time you grew up. Because to accept your ill-informed slice of idiocy that you call a rebuttal would be like telling Tiger Woods he can't play golf. I'll not try and be so rash as to say you haven't made valid points, because you have. But they aren't justified.

When I get my degree in politics while your still doing A Levels I guarentee you your pathetic attempts to counter me will be on my mind

Is that what I think it is? Why, why yes, yes it is! He's reverted back to saying "I'm older than you, and therefore, smarter!” Oh bravo Hazuki, you've degraded yourself more than I could've possibly imagined.

On the pathetic note, I can only say I'm a little confused as to why a University student studying law would take the time to destroy such "pathetic" arguements if he didn't deem them worthy, but never mind, eh?

Also: YOU'RE, YOU ARE. It's not difficult.

You have not read marx, you will never read marx. You have no concept of his theories as you have proven to me with your childish innaccurate responces. You are a stupid child who has no grasp of any of these issues in any sense. You make critical comments that contradict themselves and are clear to everyong besides you.

Making claims based on no factual evidence, hmm, that doesn't seem like something a politics student would do. Nor does using the same "petty" insults you seem to disdain so much.

If this is a little to long for you - You are a total loser who will gain nothing from standing there and looking smug, we all laugh at you for it and hope you continue. When I have my degree Ill be sure to take your spelling "practise" into account as well.

It's clearly not long enough, as you can see, I've evidently read longer, i.e. Your first post. Besides, gaining anything? Who said I was going to gain anything? I'd like to point out that you aren't gaining anything either by making these statements.

Again, I feel somewhat cruel pointing this out, but if you hope for me to continue "making a fool of myself" why would you possibly tell me that? What manner of slightly intelligent person would even consider doing that?

I would however like to end on this strong point which was, conveniently, at the end of your post:

When I have my degree Ill be sure to take your spelling "practise" into account as well.

Are you a Maths major? Are you a Physics major? Are you an English major? No? Well then. You are a fool if you continue to believe that just because you are going for a degree makes you some kind of archetypal genius. Because you aren't.

I'll make a final attempt to put this back on topic where it belongs.

---------------------

I wonder if any of those "typical" aliens we see artist’s conceptions of are accurate?

[The Advent Wanderer]

i think that if it were other worldly, H. G. Wells would be right about it attempting to kill us all off. Jeez, makes ya think, eh?